getting lost

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    • #12406 Reply
      Experienced in Difficulties
      Guest

      Catching a flight back from ChCh after Easter I choked hearing that 2 people were getting rescued after getting ‘lost’ in the Ruahines in very poor conditions. Having changed our Easter plans because of too much snow and uncertain weather conditions in Arthurs Pass I was astonished..yet alone to now read it was two from the WTMC!

      How embarrassing – getting lost in the Ruahines, well not really, but calling SAR at 2.30pm in the afternoon might be. As with the poor bloke down south who travelled light (6kgs of gear) going without the adequate gear is plain bloody stupid! A 30kg pack seems rather light now…The Ruahines are notorious for impossible navigation in poor visibility and wide open tops! I have led many trips and know how bad it can get – the people concerned have been with me…

      A SAR call is a last effort – stay put and wait it out until you can find your way out. They say they had plenty of food and gear but may be not enough stamina. On my trips a fly has been essential (who remembers that trip!). Also, a GPS if available is damned useful despite their limitations – and trust your compass!!! If you’re down south alone then take an ELB…

      We owe all of NZ and other outdoors enthusiasts a little respect – too many inadquately prepared trampers are getting lost and rescued! Sometimes a rescue call is inevitable and the wisest decision, but at least be prepared and know how to survive overnight or longer…

    • #16567 Reply
      Chief Guide
      Guest

      Without actually being there it is impossible for anyone to know & comment accurately on events. However the fact that the two WTMCers realised they were out of their depth & made the call for help is to be congratulated, as is their willingness to share their experiences and lessons learnt with others.

    • #16568 Reply
      Wayne
      Guest

      Ruth and I talked to the two people who got lost about what happened and there is nothing to be embarrased about. On the contray, we all make mistakes from time to time and its really good when we have enough common sense to learn from them. What happened to these two clubbies in the Ruahines could happen to anyone.

      Raymond i would recommend that you read the article in the newsletter from the two people involved – i really admire how they have written up their experiences – so we can all learn from them.

      As for calling SAR in the current circumstances they were in – this action was entirely appropriate. If i had found myself in the same circumstances i would have done the same. They key is to try to avoid getting into such a situation, but from time to time in the outdoors it is quite possible that you may end up in a situation like this. The real thing is to realise you have made a mistake and then learn about how you can get out of it (without doing something worse..).

      Sure it can be argued that they should stay put and wait for the weather to clear – but if you are suffering the early signs of hypothermia and have coverage to call for help or advice, why not do so? Ive been involved in SAR for 20 years now and i would be more than happy to go out and look for anyone who is lost in such circumstances.

      It is interesting when you ask around clubbies and find out whether they have got themselves into sitns like this – in fact many have.. The issue is partly to try to avoid getting into such a sitn but an even bigger one is how one handles these problems when the arise. The training we do in the club (Bushcraft, Leadership, AIC, Seakayaking instruction) is directed at both trying to avoid such situations from arising but also when they do to try and resolve them in the safest possible way.

      Its great that we can learn from such situations – and thanks to the two involved for writing it up in the newsletter.

      Thanks
      Wayne

    • #16570 Reply
      Raymond
      Guest

      I read the article, but got the impression they were unprepared for the conditions. Good lessons, but it is all common sense that you learn from going on club trips and learn from others with more experience. Yes, Wayne, everyone makes mistakes including me, and you – happy to admit that! However, my point is you should always go prepared. The Dominion article on Saturday highlighted that exact point. You cannot rely on cellphones either.

      I am not criticising them for the decision they made as such calling SAR. I was not there, but know the area, the conditions, and the people involved and their capabilities. I have been in worse weather for days – tarapapabloodyruaroas. BUT know what you are getting yourselves into and be prepared. If necessary change plans – I’ve been criticised unfairly for that, but it has often been the right decision at the time.

      If it was a club trip would they be allowed to lead more trips – take punters without adequate protection fom the elements, i.e. no tent or fly?

      Over Easter 2004 we hired an Alpine tent from the club – never actually required it, because there were huts, but it was a safety precaution. We changed the route because of severe snowstorms and more forecast, but nothing too bad eventuated.

      People have said to me, why carry such a heavy pack? Because I have the bodyweight that can handle it and make up for those who cannot carry as much. I always take a GPS, spare food, clothes, shelter, cellphone, etc. When going alpine, an ice axe, crampons, gloves, etc. Often this equipment is unnecessary, but apys to be prepared. The other point is to trust the compass and know how to use it! Sure, Ruahines tops are damned difficult to navigate, but knowing that don’t venture across the tops in whiteouts – sure, they may have had no option.

      The club is to be congratulated for training leaders. I learnt a lot from Lyndsay/Allen and few others about being prepared, navigation, etc. It is sometimes virtually impossible in whiteout conditions to navigate in the Ruahines with a compass and map alone.

      I recently took my 2 young nephews (10 & 13) up Ngarahoe in a whiteout, but they were safe because we were prepared, knew what we were doing, etc.

      I understand from reading newspapers that the English guy who died down south recently, tramping alone, carrying 6.5kgs of gear decided not to take an ELB, which could have saved his life – would have.

      You cannot eliminate all risks, but mitigate them by being prepared and know how to use navigation equipment. We have a responsibility for that to ourselves, the SARs and the community!

    • #16571 Reply
      Wayne
      Guest

      Yep thanks Raymond

      One of the lessons learnt (as reflected in their excellent article in the newsletter) was that they need to take some shelter with them and have subsequently bought a huntech bivy shelter/fly

      Its easy to think how such sitns can arise – i remember once not taking a tent or fly when i was by myself and having to end up slepping out in a bivy bag.. i was fine, bit wet around the head, but ok. It was a good test of the bivy bag (worked well). You only make such mistakes once.

      Knowledge that things can go wrong – and it may not be possible to reach the hut for the night etc, is the reason why taking some shelter is compulsory on all club trips. But, i can imagine there are heaps of people, like me, who have not taken shelter on a pvt trip (and made a mistake)

      Its good to learn from these mistakes

      see ya
      Wayne

    • #16572 Reply
      Raymond
      Guest

      Yes, totally agree. Eva and I (that was R & E, not K & E!) once slept out on the tops of the Ruahines in our bivvy bags – about 200m from the hut that we walked upto and could not find in the mist at 11.30pm. We had a comfortable night under the stars, despite Eva being concerned that we could not find the hut – it was a laughing matter the next day and many later. However, it could have been a lot worse if we didn’t have the gear. Likewise, luckily we all had tents on Grant’s infamous 4 day wet trip in the Tarapapabloodyruaroas trip, else many would have no doubt got expsoure/hypothermia.

      On that matter I would recommend the club purchase 2-3 ELBs for use on long trips where cellphone coverage (dare I say it) is not available. They’re now very inexpensive and lightweight. Mtn radios are available to hire, etc. Two more articles on Stuff today reinforce this and my comment above about the “Englishman”.
      The technology is now available so we should use it.

    • #16573 Reply
      Chief Guide
      Guest

      It is all about calculated risk, understanding the possible situations & having a plan to deal with them should they arrise. So just a few comments on the thoughts mentioned above:

      A fly is comulsory on club trips, what emergency shelter people choose to take on private trips is up to them be it a tent, a fly, a bivi bag etc…. A pack liner doubles as an emergency bivi albeit not a very comfortable one! and I am sure that anyone who has used a pack liner for emergency shelter has gone out & bought a fly on their return home. A pack liner bag it is however better than nothing at all and I am sure the two people will agree.

      I think that everyone is awear that mobile phones cannot be relyed upon in the hills, we certainly emphasise that on club training courses, but if you have one with you then why not use it if you can get a signal (better than leaving it in the transport or at home).

      Longer trips & trips to more remote parts of the counry often hire mountain radios. And I know of at least one person who tramps with the club who carrys a personal locator becon as a rule. Again it comes down to calculated risk, which will include party size, experience, expected terrain & weather… In a medical emergency or accident then if a trip has 4 or more people a couple of people could go for help. In situations where that is not possible it comes down to the resoursefullness of the party members.

      Your suggestion about club purchasing locator beacons is one for Comittee to consider. Bearing in mind we don’t own avalanche transcievors or mountain radios this may be an item that people would be expected to hire from elsewhere or own their own.

      Yes there has been alot of unfortunate press coverage to do with tramping lately, but remember that the 2 most recent incidents were people tramping alone, as I am awear unfamaliar with NZ conditions and thus inadequatelly prepared.

      The biggest point of difference being that the two people involved in the incident that has sparked this discussion DID come back and have lessons to learn from & share with others. I reckon that that is more than just good luck.

      Ruth

    • #16574 Reply
      Andrew
      Guest

      My 2 cents worth – i don’t think ELBs would be particularly useful or necessary for club trips. But if they are, hiring them is a better way to go (more cost effective, no risk of becoming outdated technology)

      I can’t recall an official club trip where only one person headed off on their own – most our trips are 4 or more people. For years 4 people has been the ideal “safe” number for a trip cos it allows for scenarios where one member gets injured and help is required. For a weekend trip getting help without radios usually means a 6 hour or less dash for assistance. I think recent experience with ELBs shows that help may not get to you any quicker. An ELB triggered does not give any info about the nature of the emergency, size or experience of the party and has to go through several levels of oversight before local search efforts are activated. See recent Mt Cook/Copland Pass incident where up to a 2 day delay was involved. If you are alone there is no doubt an ELB will buy you some time, but I don’t think its any replacement for travelling in a group, leaving clear intentions with people before you leave and a “panic time”.

      On longer trips mountain radios are are the way to go – 2 way communications and regular schedules. Hopefully the technology in this area will improve so that the mtn radios get smaller and therefore encourage more people to take them.

      As for cellphones – while sometimes useful to rearrange transport if an unexpected change of plans, I’ve never planned on them being used as part of a safety plan. Coverage and battery life is too unreliable and I think some people rely on them as a false security or alternatively may jump to use them to avoid the inconvenience of being late.

    • #16575 Reply
      Don Goodhue
      Guest

      All good discussion.

      I agree with Andrew regarding cellphones, ELBS and mountain radios. In many situations we see in the news these days, people have resorted to the cellphone or ELB, not because they are in a true emergency situation but have found themselves out of their comfort zone – ie: lost.

      In spite of the technology available, there is still no substitue for sound planning, adequate gear etc and good navigation skills. The club has a role here in providing training, however I don’t believe we should get into providing ELBs.

    • #16576 Reply
      Paul Christoffel
      Guest

      Being one of the guilty parties I guess I should comment on some of these comments.

      First, you shouldn’t always believe what you read in the newspapers. The conditions weren’t actually particularly bad (although worse than forecast) – I’ve been on the tops in far worse conditions and worse visability. Given that there are over 1000 SAR callouts every year I cannot understand why our rather trivial incident made the media.

      We didn’t have a tent or fly because we were doing a very easy tramp apart from a couple of hours worth on the last day and the forecast was ok. I suspect many others would have left their fly/tent at home in similar circumstances (although we won’t in future).

      Despite being reasonably well prepared for the sort of tramp we were doing, you can’t prepare for every contingency.

      Despite what the guy in the newspaper said we knew exactly what we had to do to survive overnight, and made a pretty good fist of it I think. We had loads of warm clothes (including several pairs of gloves), large packliners and ground sheets. With benefit of hindsight we didn’t need to call SAR at all – but you don’t know that until you’ve tried sleeping out without a fly, as I gather a number of MTMC members have done at various times.

      The SAR guys were very happy to be called out. In fact they said they were pretty disappointed to have to call off the search after only 30 minutes. They didn’t even get to brew us a hot drink as we’d just had one!

    • #16577 Reply
      Paul Christoffel
      Guest

      I agree with Don’s points about technology. It is no substitute for sound navigation skills, decent equipment etc.

      We were guilty of sloppy navigation through trying to keep moving because it was a little windy and wet. The result was idiotic errors that were punished when conditions worsened and we couldn’t retrace our steps. Even then, if we’d had a fly we would never have considered phoning SAR. A lot of embarrassment (and possibly worse) could have been avoided with slightly better preparation and a lot more care. On the other hand if we hadn’t carted around a lot of extra clothes for the few hours we were planning to spend above the bushline things could have been a lot worse. We did learn something from the bushcraft course!

      Thanks for the supportive comments from Wayne and others.

    • #16578 Reply
      Yibai
      Guest

      Hi Paul,

      Thanks for your feed back, knowing your experience certainly will help lots new trampers (and not that new trampers like me) be more prepared in the future. I think you also raised a good issue about the club bush craft course, I know this year’s course we didn’t cover the navigate with a compass, neither we covered GPS reading, which I think maybe we should include them in the future.

    • #16579 Reply
      Jo Holden
      Guest

      I feel obliged to add an official perspective to the current thread with respect to the rescue of 2 WT&MC members from the Ruahines over Easter.

      NZ Police have a contract with Central Government to provide a SAR response to Land Emergencies. We do this in conjunction with NZLandSAR, with whom we have a Memorandum of Understanding to provide the Coordination and Control for Searches where teams of volunteers (just like you) head out and search for and rescue people who need us. We do marine stuff too, but I?ll address the Land stuff for now.

      When we receive a call for assistance, whether it be from a party that feel they need rescuing, or from a family member reporting a loved one overdue, we do not judge; we make an assessment of the situation based on the facts as we know them at the time. Our response is based on that assessment; the response may be measured; it may be immediate. However, we will respond.

      Sharon & Paul make some pertinent points in their article:

      Firstly, your first point of call with Police Communications will be with someone who is unlikely to have any knowledge at all of tramping or NZ geography. However, we have Standard Operating Procedures that will result in your message getting through to a SAR Police person. Be patient. Be precise. And be prepared to wait. If that means getting off the tops into shelter, do it. Don?t expect the chopper to turn up 10 minutes after your call.

      Secondly, present the facts as they are. Visibility, estimated windspeed, terrain, reference points etc. The aircrew are the experts. They will assess. If they cant land or winch, they wont. They will GPS your location, and come back when the risks no longer outweigh the chance of rescue. That might not be for some time. Once again, look after yourself. And stay put.

      If you?re fortunate enough to have cellphone coverage, keep the battery warm (next to skin) and preserve its life. If it?s howling 85 knots, sleeting and 10 degrees below freezing, we wont be flying. Don?t bother heading up to the tops to phone us to see where we are. Dig in and look after yourself. Up close and personal if needs be.

      Once the weather allows, make yourself easy to find. Smoke generally works really well. Make sure the embers are out before you flap off though.

      Air support is not our only resource; we will be sending ground teams to find you as well. Sometimes weather may dictate a ground-only response.

      As a SAR Incident Controller, I don?t care if you?re embarrassed; your gear may be inadequate, and your navigation skills poor. I would much rather pull out a live embarrassed person any day, rather than a dead body. I?m sure my colleagues echo my sentiments.

      For the new members in the club, I would stress that good preparation is essential. The club have excellent Instruction courses and trips to help your preparedness.

      However, when it all turns pear-shaped, we?re only too happy to come and find you. You may get a lecture from a tired, grumpy old Senior Constable or Land SAR Advisor, but that comes with the territory. And your story will make for a remarkable article of interest in the Club Newsletter.

      Jo Holden
      Acting O/C SAR
      Wellington District Police
      & WT&MC Club member

    • #16580 Reply
      Max Thomas
      Guest

      I would like to add my 2 cents worth to comments made by Raymond. Specifically about carrying gears for emergencies, extra clothing, food, stove and fuel etc. Conversely I am going through the process of trying to reduce my pack weight on club trips after years of solo and two person and taking the kids trips where I’ve carried ‘everything’. I have frankly been amazed at the weight NOT carried by various people on club trips (mostly easy trips so far). Perhaps I am bogged down with old school thinking that we should all be personally capable of surviving if separated from the party. However I do consider that some people are too lightly prepared for the possibility of being separted from the party and hut accomodation for the night. Conversely I acknowledge carrying the ‘kitchen sink’ will also put people off the outdoors, because of back strain etc!!!
      Max

    • #16581 Reply
      Andrew
      Guest

      I’ve often been accused of travelling light (handbag/daybag etc) but I always carry sufficient gear to camp out in some form or another (eg. bivvy bag or fly) and never travel without storm gear. The current craze on going light brings to mind the old MSC or FMC saying from the 60/70s that Tavelling Light can mean Heavy Going in an emergency. It can be a fine balance. I think the current fad is about not leaving essential gear behind but using the lightest/smallest possible types of essential gear. It is a bit gimmicky and can have its rewards, but I think care has to be taken to ensure you’re not just trading off comfort for weight. If you are trading off safety for weight you’re treading a fine line.

      Good to see discussion on these important issues. Re Yibai’s comments, could someone clarify that if compass/GPS work was not covered in this year’s Bushcraft course (which I was a bit surprised at hearing). that the club offers various Navigation instruction as well.

    • #16582 Reply
      Chief Guide
      Guest

      Andrew

      Yes it is correct as Yibai stated that compass or GPS was not covered on Bushcraft earlier this year. Bushcraft attracts very new people & it is a fine balance between teaching necessary stuff & overwelming them with so much information that they cant take it all in, or forget it all the minute they get home.

      There is alot more to navigation than a compass & it is the basic principals of location awareness & map reading that is focused on at Bushcraft as it is these skills that are used far more often than a compass, and infact is the stuff that you need to be compentant with before a compass will do you any good.

      The time avaliable on the Bushcraft weekend, interest & capabilities of participants will determine how much detail is covered at the time. This year the challenges offered by the weather meant that while we covered location awareness, basic map reading and orientating the map with the compass we ran short of time do do much else on navigation ie. taking bearings.

      The club runs a leadership course (currently every 2 years but if we can get sufficient people interested in attending then we would like to be running this annually) which is aimed at club members new to leading trips as well as a refresher for those already leading trips. Significant time is spent on navigation & compass work on this course.

      If you have a look on the current schedule you will see that there are several trips marked down as navigation, the intent being that some degree of navigation teaching & practice is undertaken on these trips, (it will vary depending on destination, leader & conditions on the weekend). It certainly is when I lead such trips. The navigation trip in May (Tararuas) lead by Eric Blumhardt & Peter Silverwood is the next such trip on the schedule.

      GPS’s – well you still need to know how to read a map & use a compass. Technology is offering great toys (I own of an altimeter) but at the end of the day you have to learn how to crawl before you can learn how to walk. Having said that the club regularly sends members on FMC training courses and from memory GPS use is covered on these weekends.

      WTMC is very keen to see members upskill & this is evident in the training opportunities that are offered & promoted within club.

      I think that the club environment is a fantastic place for the sharing & learning of skills relevant to enjoyment & survival in the outdoors and something that everyone needs to take some kind if responsibility for. ie when on a trip why not teach a newer person how to read a map or cross a river, or share your own experiences of a difficult situation with others so that everyone can learn from the situation such as how Paul & Sharon have by sharing their recent experiences in the newsletter.

      Ruth

    • #16583 Reply
      Andrew
      Guest

      Thanks Ruth
      My query was not intended as a criticism, just didn’t want Yibai’s comment left unqualified as I’m aware of the other navigation issues covered in the Bushcraft cse and the other navigation training opportunities offered by the club. I’m a great fan of learning on the job from others more experienced so I’d highly recommend Eric and Peter’s trip to those wanting to work on nav skills

      Andrew

    • #16584 Reply
      Grant Newton
      Guest

      Another tip for safety in the mountains is to ensure you note your intentions in the hut books. This is all huts that a group passes, not just the huts used for overnight stops. Unfortunately I have noticed in recent times far too many groups failing to note their intentions in the huts they pass by.

      In the event of a search, the SAR teams can quickly narrow the search area based on these intentions.

    • #16586 Reply
      Andrew
      Guest

      Good point Grant – interesting to hear that some people don’t put there name in hut books becasue of fear that DoC will track them down for unpaid hut fees (Apparently that was reported as one of the reasons why the English guy in Matukituki never signed into hut books). I’ve never heard of anyone being collared thru this process, but I’ve heard of searches made difficult because of intention books not being completed for this very reason. The information collected in intention books is only collected for statistical hut usage records and for safety purposes.

    • #16587 Reply
      Steve Kohler
      Guest

      I have noticed on trips with the club (and I am sure its the same with all clubs) that navigation skills are assumed to be within the party. Hopefully those skills are vested in that trip leader, but what about all the other punters?

      I believe we all as trampers need to keep our navigation skills strong which can only be done by repeated practice (how easy is it to forget how to use a compass). Therefore it would be great to have on all trips, at least one compulsory stop (conditions permitting) for 10-15 minutes for map reading and compass use. For the average tramper this would make navigation awareness stronger than that gained from a once yearly bushcraft course or the occasional navigation-oriented trip.

      Steve Kohler

    • #16588 Reply
      Andrew
      Guest

      Steve

      When leading easy or medium trips where i can’t assume everyone has basic navigation skills I always made a point of getting others to have a go at navigation – just awareness and map reading to start with. Compass work if off track. I agree theres nothing like learning on the job. Its easy for me to say though as I haven’t led one of those trips in years and it takes a special person to corral 10 or more complete strangers of varying abilities and experience.

      For those trampers wanting to test navigation on a regular basis but don’t want to get into tiger country I’d recommend rogaines – sort of an extended and more fun form of orienteering. Will often involve very accurate map and compass work. Often in open country but all the more fun in bush. Events range from 3 hour after work events in summer to 24hr epics at National level. Trampers tend to do really well at them. You go at your own pace.

      Andrew

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