[Max Thomas]

This is ‘provoked’ by current forum discussions on the SAR call out and my experiences with club kayak trips. Bearing in mind that everyone us has to gain experience to become ‘experienced’ and all of us have been and/or are going through this process.
I have been on 3 club trips where the weather made sea/lake conditions rough. Two of these occasions involved inexperienced kayakers failing to cope. One of these persons actually gave up trying to help themselves sort the situation and then acording to rumour bizarrely considered going on the third trip where conditions were worse. Add to this the personal awkwardness of a trip leader recently having to ask that only experienced paddlers put their names forward for a day trip.
It is my belief that adverse water conditions can be more quickly fatal than the same on land. Perhaps the club could come up with some more adequate grading system for kayaking. A set ‘vetting’ system of say a day trip or three before an overnighter??? Swimmers only or a signed disclaimer etc etc?? More thought and discussion needed on this.
Cheers Max

[Wayne]

Yes – good points. Grading kayaking trips is quite difficult. A trip that is a med trip on a fine calm day can be an extremely hard one of a windy day.

We have given some thought in the past to how we grade kayaking trips – but the best we have managed to come up with is the usual eay/med/fit etc and also stipulating whether it is for experienced or inexperienced people to go on.

We have over the years tightened up on how we run kayaking trips. We used to run quite large trips but now try to keep the numbers to 8 or less (but this can be flexible depending on the location etc)

The club runs an annual kayaking instruction course plus another course for leaders. However, at the end of the day we do reserve the right to decline to take people on trips – in the past ive run trips where people neglect to tell you about being unable to use arms for kayaking (bizarre i know – one person turned up on a kayaking trip and said that they couldnt paddle due to having wrist problems and then just sat in the front on the kayak while she was paddled from one end of taupo to the other..)

Sure we try to use good systems of risk management and we try to vet people going on trips, however it has to remembered that we are all volunteers. Trip leaders dont get paid for running trips. Those going on the trip themselves do have some responsbilities to ensure that they use some common sense. We try to make things as safe as possible. Certainly club trips do have a higher safety standard than almost all private trips where people may hire boats – due to leader training. But its not idiot proof.

Thanks
Wayne

[Andrew]

We have to distinguish between club trip leaders and commercial kayak guides. We never put our trip leaders out as the latter. What the club should expect from leaders is a certain level of competency in a kayak in most conditions and enough knowledge to read weather conditions – they should be comfortable enough in the conditions they are liekly to experience on their trip (eg. open waters cf. harbour kayaking) to look after themselves, but also if required to assist others (throw lines, wet exits and re entry).

What we should expect from punters is that they are adult enough to honestly tell us about their level of experience and fitness. Just about all club trips will involve rental of kayaks from a commercial company. Safety briefings and weather warnings come with that. Beyond that I don’t believe the club should be getting into anything like disclaimers – that starts creating unfair expectations on the club.

Grading trips does sound hard cos of the weather – there is no guarantee that an otherwise placid day trip can’t turn into an epic. Similarly if commercial companies are willing to send complete novices off on overnight trips with just a safety briefing should we place higher requirements on our volunteer led trips? The safety risks will depend a lot on the type of water you are likely to cross and the prevalent weather conditions.

Club vetting for the club’s core activities (remember thats tramping and mountaineering) is usually an informal chat with new punters before the trip – to me this is an invaluable way to suss out people’s experience and expectations. It is also what makes clubs different from businesses. I’d hate to see this replaced with formal vetting or form filling.

Happy paddling

[stuart]

I recently completed a risk management course run by the mountain safety council. I recommend all club leaders complete one of these courses (there is another one coming up soon) so you are aware of your responsbilities to your punters and to the reputation of the club, and the legal responsibilities you personally have as the person in charge of your group.

There are huge expectations placed on leaders and the law does not make any excuse or allowance for how costly, impractical and time consuming it is to ensure leaders (even if unpaid volunteers) use “best practice” when organising and running trips.

The course was a real eye opener to me and I now know that the culture within clubs such as ours needs to change to reflect the current climate of who can we blame.

Get yourself a copy of the MSC’s new edition of outdoor safety-risk management for outdoor leaders (published by the mountain satefy council) Especially if you are someone who thinks things like “we are unpaid and untrained volunteers, we are only a club, as adults we need to take responsibility for ourselves etc”

“All outdoor leaders have legal responsibilities, whether they are volunteer or commerical outdoor leadxers or teachers. The employers or controlling authorities of these groups also have legal responsibilities” (Page 106) MSC -risk management for outdoor leaders.

The MSC book also explains that disclaimers/waivers no not release leaders or organsations from their legal responsbilities for the prevention of risk. Also, informed consent/risk disclosure forms do not remove an organisations legal responsbilities towards particpants (page 110-111)

as an example, at my school we have to complete a 10 page form to take students off site as part of our risk management safety plan. This way we have the paperwork in place to protect us should anything go wrong. It also of course dramitically limits what we can do in the outdoors. The best practice requirements are so difficult for us to meet that we end up either not running the activities or employing professionals to run any outdoor stuff.

I am not lawyer and I dont want to scare people from leading trips, but I strongly believe that leaders must be aware of risk management and how it affects them personally.

Get a copy of the MSC manual and have a read then you can make your own decision of how your own ideas compare to the expectations of risk management.

I would like the club to have an open forum on the risk management issue. As a club we should be setting an example of outdoor safety best practice and be aware of the best practice standards for the activities that we participate in. I think further discussion on this issue would be a good thing.

Stuart

[stuart]

I have just read my post and want to carifly my point on attitudes regarding “we are only a club, we are only volunteers etc” I wasnt referring directly to comments made by the previous respondents but to these kinds of thoughts in general.

I apologise if my intenton was misleading or offended any of the previous respondents.

Next time I will proof read my post before I click on the button of no return!
Stuart

[Don Goodhue]

I share similar concerns to some of those raised in the forgoing discussions. I must admit that I was involved in leading the first ever sea kayaking trip with the club about 8 years ago – talk about a shambles.

Anyhow back to the current discussion.

1) Perhaps we need to clarify what the legal responsibilities of the club, leaders and punters is in this area.

2) “Disclaimer” froms etc will not prevent accidents from occuring.

The principle concern I have regarding sea kayaking trips is that they operate in an environment that most of the participants have very little knowledge or experience in. I’m not talking about the skills required to handle a kayak but the skills, knowledge and experience need to operate safely in a marine environment.

On the water, whether it be in a kayak or any small boat factors such as weather, tide, sea state and proximity to safe landing all need to be taking into account in the decision making process. We all know that unlike tramping, when the conditions start to get tough, just stopping for a rest may not be a viable option. I know that a few club members involved in sea kayaking have previous experience in sailing and will understand what I am talking about.

As Andrew has explained we rely heavily on the honesty of punters and leaders an we need to be able to continue to use this. The area that we probably make the biggest improvement in is training. There are two aspects to this – being able to handle the sea kayak and the emergeny drills etc that go with it and perhaps more importantly, training in the environmental aspects – weather, tides, sea state etc. One way of addressing the later could be to make use of the NZ Coast Guard Boating Education courses. Over the summer I worked my way through one of their courses and apart from a couple of sections, found that it was very relevant to sea kayaking.

The club puts a lot of emphasis on training in alpine actitivies. Given the risks associated with sea kayaking I believe we should do the same in that area.

[Andrew]

This is going to sound like a rave, but please bear with me.

I’ve been weary of regulation creep into the outdoors club scene for many years now. My concern is that we will end up with the absurd situation we now have in schools – that is children are not being extended in different outdoors environments because theres a perception its too dangerous or there is too much formal risk management paperwork to do.

I really feel for the enthusiastic teachers placed in this situation. But I feel more for the kids – where are they going to get their first taste of the outdoors? By walking the Milford track with a trekking company? Sight seeing trips over Mt Cook? Nature Walks? I remember school camps huddled under flies in the rain; tramping up steep slopes in freezing rain with inadequate clothing – I had no idea where I was on those trips but loved every minute of it. You learn about your bodies limits, the need for good clothing, canned tongue does not a great meal make, basic survival skills and about getting on with people etc.. My concern is what happens to today’s kids, who have been thru our risk averse school system, when they are adults and want to start getting into “extreme” sports like tramping and climbing? Are clubs going to be increasingly expected to spoon feed and molly coddle?

The more we willingly accept regulation in the club scene, the more we pander to the perception or expectation that our club trip leaders are experts, acting in a quasi professional capacity and that individual adults (lets remember we are talking about adults here) are just clients who don’t take some personal responsibility.

I believe we generally run safe trips – theres always room for improvement but we have to be careful that the expectations we place on club members as trip leaders don’t ultimately put them off leading trips. (The current concerns about committee members being asked to do too much is perhaps symptomatic of unrealistic expectations?) If that happens I don’t believe we will have a healthily functioning club.

As for the law – I’m a bit confused because the recent changes to OSH legislation to cover volunteers included what appears to be a very wide exception for recreational clubs. I’m not sure how MSC have interpreted this but the legislation is worded as follows. I’d argue just about all we do as a club falls into 3C (3)(b)(ii) below:

3C. Application of certain provisions to volunteers doing regular work?

(1) This section applies if?
(a) a volunteer does work for another person (being an employer or self-employed person) with the knowledge or consent of the other person; and
(b) the volunteer does the work on an ongoing and regular basis for that other person; and
(c) the work is an integral part of the business of the employer or self-employed person.
(2) When this section applies, sections 6 to 12, 19, and Part 4 apply with all necessary modifications,?
(a) as if the volunteer were an employee of the other person; and
(b) as if the other person were the volunteer’s employer; and
(c) as if the volunteer were at work when doing work for the other person.
(3) This section does not apply in respect of a volunteer doing any of the following voluntary work activities:
(a) participation in a fundraising activity; or
(b) assistance with sports or recreation for?
(i) a sports club:
(ii) a recreation club:
(iii) an educational institution; or

[Wayne]

Hi

Just to clarify – we are at present putting quite a bit of emphasis on training for sea kayaking trips . We run an annual instruction course for those new to kayaking and last year we ran a kayaking leadership course.

Before we hire all boats – we generally try to ensure that a safety briefing is given or we ensure that those going on the trip have been on a kayaking course or have the skills necessary

Good ideas from Stuart and Don above – but all of the above things take time. Ive taken a lead on instruction on kayaking stuff so far but im finding with being Pres and other responsibilities there is a limit to how much i can physically do (and want to do..).

In regards to liability of trip leaders – this was looked at last year following the Le Race court case (where basically the organiser was held to be i think criminally negligent). Sure there are risks but generally safety and risk management standards in the club are far far superior than most other clubs (due to the emphasis on training) and the way we run trips. Ive read the decision from the judge last year and my recollection was that the judge himself stated that clubs should not be too much in fear from this decision etc, etc (i cant recall the exact words)

I think it is important that we dont run around like head-less chickens being too worried about risks otherwise we may as well not do anything in the outdoors…

I like to think we are setting a standard for outdoor safety. But if anyone thinks we can do more – great – but please help out. THose that are already busy doing instruction and other stuff in the club are already busy.

I havent been on the MSC course that you refer to in your posting Stuart – but from reading your email it sounds like MSC want clubs to raise safety standards more and more and be aware of some libilitiy issues etc – i cant help but wonder if this drive to raise standards and fears of liability etc could end up in creating the demise of more and more tramping clubs (as people become reluctant to lead or organise things).

Im sure that MSC are supportive of clubs like ours who act responsbily and do what we can to raise safety levels and risk management levels

thanks
Wayne

[Gerald]

There does seem to be a conflict between the legal position presented by MSC on the course Stuart attended and the letter of the law as quoted by Andrew. Perhaps a small group of us should get together to nut this out? Happy to be part of this, and I can think of others who might be helpful.

Re. kayak trips: when I led a kayak trip for the first time the judgement as to who could come on the trip seemed to be very much in my hands. It would be helpful for first-time kayak leaders to a) have a strict policy of not allowing first-time kayakers on overnight kayak trips (ie a clarification of the current policy) and b) have an experienced leader check the suitability of the punters. It can be hard to say “no” to someone who’s very keen and confident.

A guideline could be that no kayak trip (other than an instruction or half-day trip) should be graded less than “Medium”, reducing the risk that, as Don points out, the weather will place more demands on punters than are expected. Easy and Easy/Medium trips often attract fit members who you want on the trip because of their experience, but the result can be a very spread-out fleet – which doesn’t help with safety.

[Author]

Posts